tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post9066963558887588744..comments2023-05-03T09:05:55.102-07:00Comments on Jacobinism: Against All Saidists...Unrepentant Jacobinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09256579083755037018noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-41829020378392538412013-12-24T15:33:30.527-08:002013-12-24T15:33:30.527-08:00Read For Lust of Knowing: The Orientalists and The...Read For Lust of Knowing: The Orientalists and Their Enemies by Robert Irwin. It has a great chapter on Said. ollie1986https://www.blogger.com/profile/11089642139578014098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-8353589959941475462013-08-14T04:22:24.555-07:002013-08-14T04:22:24.555-07:00Said is difficult for his most ardent critics beca...Said is difficult for his most ardent critics because he is not the Mad Mullah they desire him to be. He was a Christian, highly cultured, sought after Prof of Literature and noted Classical pianist. <br /><br />He speaks with deep knowledge of The West, as he is a greater exponent of it's civilization than most, but he does not fall pray to it's assumptions about itself. <br /><br />He is worrying because The West can no longer be represented on its own terms. It is no longer the sole subject.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-89196439404785769762013-08-13T16:24:40.744-07:002013-08-13T16:24:40.744-07:00"Mainly Egypt which could, quite, plausibly b..."Mainly Egypt which could, quite, plausibly be identified as a cultural entrepot"<br /><br />What does that mean?<br /><br />"it does strike as odd that he left when that territory passed to the purer Islamic rule after a brief spell of openness."<br /><br />"Purer" by what standard? The Zahirite school that the Almohad's favoured was seen as deviant and heretical by the other Sunni muslim juristic schools.The Maliki school which was previously dominant was also persecuted by the Almohads.<br /><br />In any case, none of this actually has anything to do with rationalism and science.Religious tolerance doesn't necessarily correlate with rationalist thinking. The example of the Mutazilites was already given. The Ottoman empire was arguably more tolerant of Jews than any other Islamic empire but that didn't correlate with any interest in science.<br />Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-15563704805310181382013-08-13T14:26:26.585-07:002013-08-13T14:26:26.585-07:00Mainly Egypt which could, quite, plausibly be iden...Mainly Egypt which could, quite, plausibly be identified as a cultural entrepot. Plus, given that he's cited as an example of flowering of the idea of the mind, al Andalus, it does strike as odd that he left when that territory passed to the purer Islamic rule after a brief spell of openness.<br /><br />Why won't you use a standard posting handle?<br /><br /><br />~alecAlecnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-4109359372902974062013-08-13T12:53:10.535-07:002013-08-13T12:53:10.535-07:00Edward Said is a brilliant charlatan and conspiric...Edward Said is a brilliant charlatan and conspiricist. He knew very well how to grab the illiberal left by the balls, when he simplistically reduced all of contemporary history to post-colonialism.<br /><br />It was a very smart move -- he defined the rules of the game such that any criticism or complaint about the rules was just a re-affirmation of the rules and evidence for its correctness and righteousness. Bashing even the mildest critics of Islam and paedophile Mohammad as racists and imperialists.<br /><br />In each leftist there is a totalitarian. Otherwise you would think that by now after 35 years since his book came out, the left would have seen through the garbage (ooops holy text for them) called Orientalism.<br />Khalidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11093823702752534075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-43379646328402086432013-08-13T07:47:36.820-07:002013-08-13T07:47:36.820-07:00"The great Jewish philosopher Maimonides, for..."The great Jewish philosopher Maimonides, for example, fled Spain when it fell under the harsher rule of Almohade Muslims."<br /><br />Then he lived and worked in Morroco and Egypt. Not sure of your point here?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-34155436126273664252013-08-13T06:22:28.088-07:002013-08-13T06:22:28.088-07:00Re Mary Beard, what struck wasn't so much her ...Re Mary Beard, what struck wasn't so much her wretched views as her comically over-inflated sense of self-importance... "In a telephone poll last week, readers of the Cambridge Evening News voted decisively against any military action aimed at those responsible for the attacks on the USA" (although even that included the implication that the US should lie back and take it).<br /><br />Yet this adroit and humane group of observers still were over-ruled by the hegemonic power.<br /><br /><br />~alec<br /><br />Alecnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-34023397258493911952013-08-12T21:16:04.568-07:002013-08-12T21:16:04.568-07:00Two comments on your fine overview. First, you beg...Two comments on your fine overview. First, you begin stating "Both parts of that tweet are demonstrably true.". Well, Dawkin's first statement is certainly true, but his second - "They did great things in the Middle Ages, though." - is an overstatement. For much of what emerged from the Islamic world wasn't, well, Islamic. It was the product of conquered cultures - Indian and Persian, for example - or tolerated peoples operating within Islamic society - Christians and Jews mostly. As those cultures were progressively crushed by the yoke of Islam, they lost their vitality and their numbers (to conversion), or their scholars simply fled. The great Jewish philosopher Maimonides, for example, fled Spain when it fell under the harsher rule of Almohade Muslims.<br /><br />Second, you write, "As the traditionalist Ash'arite school of Islam asserted itself over the rationalist Mutazilites, this decline would accelerate and free thinkers in the Muslim world found themselves subject to vicious persecution." The notion of Mutazilites as "rationalist" has certainly taken hold in many circles, but Andrew Bostom broadly challenges that notion in "Sharia versus Freedom". He writes in the chapter "Mutazilite Fantasies", "The wistful projection of "Mutazilism" as a "squandered" modernizing force for Islam is an untenable hypothesis, debunked long ago by Ignaz Goldziher". <br /><br />Goldziher, he note, "also demonstrates that the Mutazilites exhibited no real manifestation of liberated thinking or any desire "to throw off chafing shackles, to the detriment of the rigorously orthodox [Islamic] view of life. Moreover, the Mutzilites' own orthodoxy was accompanied by fanatical intolerance..." In other words, As Bostom lays out, they tried to impose their own new orthodoxy.Raymond in DCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-73148448516616475322013-08-12T16:53:40.296-07:002013-08-12T16:53:40.296-07:00Anonymous -
It was not a great example from Dawki...<b>Anonymous</b> -<br /><br />It was not a great example from Dawkins, that was true, but nor is the FP Top 100 Global Thinkers list. It was conducted on the basis of a poll, and saw Yusuf al-Qaradawi take the bronze medal. If Yusuf al-Qaradawi is the third most valuable thinker on the planet, well, we might as well give up on the species and invite the Gods to rip us up and start again.BenSixhttp://bensix.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-16147078965137806272013-08-12T15:39:50.208-07:002013-08-12T15:39:50.208-07:00Said pains the ZIonists. He also pains any and all...Said pains the ZIonists. He also pains any and all people with a preference for scholarship over mendacity. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-14296607335234625062013-08-12T11:39:18.246-07:002013-08-12T11:39:18.246-07:00This tweet may be of interest; http://muddledrambl...This tweet may be of interest; http://muddledramblings.wordpress.com/2013/08/10/9/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-65204681329782154222013-08-12T10:17:01.513-07:002013-08-12T10:17:01.513-07:00I enjoyed the piece with some good points and symp... I enjoyed the piece with some good points and sympathise with despairing at the hoards of Said-lovers but...<br /><br />...to start out by defending the obnoxious tweet by the likes of Richard Dawkins?<br /><br />"All the world's Muslims have fewer Nobel Prizes than Trinity College, Cambridge." Yes, that is just stating a fact as mentioned above, but the implication in context is that this is some great indictment of the Islamic world rather than (equally) one of the awarding of Nobel Prizes. The rest of his remark - "They did great things..." (Who the hell are 'they' anyway? The cat's mother?) implies this is some sort of overall benchmark of intellectual achievement. Apparently when the top 10 intellectuals in the FP Top 100 Global Thinkers list 2008 were Islamic, that passed Dawkins by. Maybe because he got bumped from 5th to 19th.<br /><br />It was an obnoxious throwaway comment that smacks of ignorance and someone with an axe to grind. Replace with any religion, race, gender or demographic of choice and it still seems unacceptable for public media to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-32358524252941878122013-08-12T04:43:42.422-07:002013-08-12T04:43:42.422-07:00Taha,
In fact, Said falsified and distorted many ...Taha, <br />In fact, Said falsified and distorted many subjects and issues. Prof Lowell who teaches Armenian studies, points out that the issue of the Armenian genocide does not appear in Said's books. Nor does Said confront the issue of the dhimma, the oppression, humiliation, and exploitation of non-Muslim subject peoples living in the Islamic state. The Arabs and other Muslim conquering peoples were also great oppressors --in the name of Allah and Islam of course. Said denies and/or belittles the testimony about persecution/oppression of dhimmis made by Westerners and members of dhimmi communities alike. But facts are facts. Karsten Niebuhr came to Egypt in the 18th century, before Napoleon's conquests. He describes horrible and shocking humiliation of dhimmis, of Jews and Christians, especially of Jews.<br /><br />Said whitewashed the Muslim/Arab record of oppressing dhimmis, especially Jews.Eliyahu m'Tsiyonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07973268399414290195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-51524514818859338032013-08-11T22:25:24.742-07:002013-08-11T22:25:24.742-07:00Said pains the Zionists, and therefore they resort...Said pains the Zionists, and therefore they resort to all sorts of extreme reductions, if not outright misrepresentations of his rather sophisticated and nuanced ideas. Meanwhile, I enjoy watching them wail about and lament his legacy and influence, all while trying to criticize him only by making uncomprehending idiots of themselves. Wail on, racist fools... S. Tahahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04871921268353170490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-9480824246233861672013-08-11T16:27:56.455-07:002013-08-11T16:27:56.455-07:00So basically, the only determining factor in the d...So basically, the only determining factor in the demise of what is referred to as 'Islamic' countries is the fact that they are Islamic? Shtounynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-24166828621522514882013-08-11T11:24:14.509-07:002013-08-11T11:24:14.509-07:00Hopefully the Arab Spring demonstrates that the pr...Hopefully the Arab Spring demonstrates that the problems in the Arab world aren't the product of the West and of Israel (at least, not more proximally than the Sykes-Picot agreement), but are the product of abuses by Arab governments and problems in Arab culture.Avihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17176228995553104753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-38014814381634671862013-08-11T11:22:12.043-07:002013-08-11T11:22:12.043-07:00Though Islamist extremists certainly pose a substa...Though Islamist extremists certainly pose a substantial threat to Israel (and though, economically, Hezbollah can probably cause more damage than Orthodox extremists in the short term, though admittedly I haven't crunched the numbers), it's nice to see that Israeli awareness of the disproportionate influence of the extremists religious Right is becoming more common. And hopefully the Haredi are picking up on this too: 2013 was perhaps the first Israeli election in which concerns over the right-wing religious extremists were a more significant factor than security against Arab attacks.Avihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17176228995553104753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-47558778682896362432013-08-11T10:57:47.575-07:002013-08-11T10:57:47.575-07:00America's first invasion of Iraq was the respo...America's first invasion of Iraq was the response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, and the second invasion was pretty much the unfinished business of the first invasion. We all know why they invaded Afghanistan.<br /><br />These were military actions (with economic motives in the case of Iraq). It seems to me the label "liberal interventionism" used by anyone is meaningless and misleading.<br /><br />I think the Chinese are modern in the sense they don't believe in a sky-god, they do what they do based on human reason. They also seem to be producing their own version of "market capitalism" rather than something completely different.<br />LibertyPhilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07737989994395677922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-15073888628287281102013-08-11T09:13:46.309-07:002013-08-11T09:13:46.309-07:00I own a copy of "Orientalism" but have n...I own a copy of "Orientalism" but have not read it yet. Accordingly I cannot comment on what you say about Edward Said.<br /><br />However I do concur with your analysis of the reasons for the decline of Muslim scientific thinking and the negative impact of Ghazali. The same point was made in the book Muslim Civilisation: The Causes of Decline and the Need for Reform" by M. Umer Chapra which I review at http://www.mohammedamin.com/Reviews/Muslim-civilisation-the-causes-of-decline-and-the-need-for-reform.htmlMohammed Aminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01346119008795790533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-84154993115625279002013-08-11T08:40:18.920-07:002013-08-11T08:40:18.920-07:00LibertyPhile
I would hope that my examples make i...<b>LibertyPhile</b><br /><br />I would hope that my examples make it fairly clear that I'm talking about more recent decades than the 1950s: namely those which played host to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the rise of "liberal interventionism". <a href="http://lists.topica.com/lists/saulsinger/read/message.html?mid=802506841" rel="nofollow">Bernard Lewis</a> was an example (though he revised his opinion). Fouad Ajami was another.<br /><br />It has, of course, been a more prevalent idea among those who commentate on policy than those who engineer it. Had our governments been so idealistic, they would not, as you suggest, have made such efforts to accommodate the Sauds.<br /><br />I chose "Westernisation" rather than "modernisation" because I do not think that what is "modern" need be defined by market capitalism and social liberalism; as, indeed, the Chinese are proving in formidable style.BenSixhttp://bensix.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-47136941393353723762013-08-11T07:56:53.487-07:002013-08-11T07:56:53.487-07:00Excellent piece!
Sociologist John Azumah was spo...Excellent piece! <br /><br />Sociologist John Azumah was spot on when he wrote the following in his book The Legacy of Arab-Islam in Africa (2001):<br /><br />“It is right to insist that we should desist from using modern standards as measuring rods in passing judgements on past generations. But it is equally vital that we do not allow modern sensibilities to lead us into calling spades big spoons or covering up and denying what past generations took pride in. But unfortunately this is precisely what lies at the root of post-colonial Western liberal discourse on islam. The bug of politicial correctness that has infected a large section of post-colonial Western society has in no small way vitiated a significant section of post-modern Western discourse on Islam. Hence in the study of Islam in the West, the dominant convention is that a critical approach is reserved for the Christian past but forbidden for the Muslim past. In this way some Western scholars have allowed memories and guilt of their own histories affect their invaluable discourse of other histories which in turn has compromised inter-faith relations at various localities, […] Mohamedhttp://mohamed86a.tumblr.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-28274456012329020842013-08-11T07:38:19.063-07:002013-08-11T07:38:19.063-07:00I sent this blog to a secular friend in Tel Aviv w...I sent this blog to a secular friend in Tel Aviv who claitms he hates the Ultra Orthodox more than Islamists because he considers them a greater threat to the economic stabillity of his country. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-67931218197425897602013-08-11T07:24:06.196-07:002013-08-11T07:24:06.196-07:00"there has been a clear desire to Westernise ..."there has been a clear desire to Westernise the Middle East: from the Iraq invasion to the outbreak of jubilance that heralded the arrival of the "Arab Spring"."<br /><br />It is not clear at all. Building the Suez canal was simply a quicker way to get to India, and "modernisation" (a better word than "westernisation") was attempted locally by the Young Turks and by Muhammad Ali whose great great grandson was still on the throne of Egypt in 1952, and actually achieved by Mustafa Kemal.<br /><br />Though it is a pity, we didn't try to modernise the Sauds. Look at what "leaving them alone" has produced.LibertyPhilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07737989994395677922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-11497199960520070802013-08-11T05:00:39.120-07:002013-08-11T05:00:39.120-07:00Interesting essay, Unrepentant Jacobinism. (Or cou...Interesting essay, Unrepentant Jacobinism. (Or could that be Unrepentant Jack?) I would like to pick up on a couple of points, though...<br /><br /><i>Emancipation from Christian dogma led to giant strides being made in scientific inquiry and technological innovation...</i><br /><br />Did the scientific revolution represent a break from Christianity? Bacon and Copernicus were driven by the idea that they were illuminating the works of a rational God. Scientists had troubles with both Catholic and protestant dogmatists, and inspired the secularism of the Enlightenment, but at the time I think they strove to supplement rather than contradict theology.<br /><br /><i>...a critical view of the West and a corresponding sympathy, or indulgence even, of other cultures has long been a characteristic of Western thought.</i><br /><br />Indeed, thought it must be said that it has sometimes been rather too marginal a characteristic of Western thought. The fact that Mark Twain wrote to condemn the Belgian Free State made it no less atrocious. <br /><br /><i>The ability to discriminate and to judge the difference between the two - to reject or overthrow the former and to fight for and defend the latter - is an extremely precious faculty and a necessary precondition to progress.</i><br /><br />It depends on what you mean by "fight for". I agree that other cultures can be analysed, and that we are free to judge the conditions that we find there, but I'm not sure it is our business to force them to change. There is universalism that holds that one can arrive at universal standards, which I believe is true, and there is universalism that holds that those standards are universally applicable, and should be actualised, which seems less defensible.<br /><br />While I believe it's true that Said was wrong in impugning the field as a tool of Western subordination, there has been a clear desire to Westernise the Middle East: from the Iraq invasion to the outbreak of jubilance that heralded the arrival of the "Arab Spring". Yet if research into the history of civilisations has taught us anything it is that culture is deeply rooted, and that pressure from above is liable to force these roots deeper. That the Middle East is, in large part, such a violent mess, and so caught between tyranny and jihadism, is tragic proof of this.<br /><br />Ben<br /><br />BenSixhttp://www.bensix.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5380090049852721671.post-27534600541900262212013-08-11T04:51:45.484-07:002013-08-11T04:51:45.484-07:00"To give Islam the credit of Averröes and so ..."To give Islam the credit of Averröes and so many other illustrious [Muslim] thinkers, who passed half their life in prison"<br /><br />Weak arguement. Most of the famous Orthodox Sunni scholars were imprisoned, tortured or executed as well.They were all accussed of being heretics at the time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com